@ryoung122 In the period between 1912 and 1919, she normally lived with her family in the Dnieper. That is, when she was 7, she left Ukraine. But after all that, she was registered in the birth register in Bihać, ie Bosnia and Herzegovina, where she lived briefly with her parents. Since 1923 in Belgrade. Her family claims that there is a Baptismal font in the Dnieper, which will of course be found soon. (I received a certificate confirming the change of citizenship).

So born in Russia.

@ryoung122 Yes, then the Russian Empire or the Russian Empire. Dnipropetrovsk, (today the Dnipro), present-day Ukraine.

Dnipro

@dejan The Russian Revolution began in 1917 as an upheaval against Czarist rule. Ukraine declared independence in 1918, though by 1922 it was later re-integrated into the USSR.

Posted by: @ryoung122

So born in Russia.

Born in Present-day Ukraine, which is why she’s UKR/SRB and not RUS/SRB

Just to mention She is Russian by nationality.

@jef Which is an after the fact interpretation and not what happened in real time.

@ryoung122 Her family still declares itself to be the Russian National Minority in Serbia.

@ryoung122

Correct, and it’s quite literally how the GRG has applied country of birth/death until Lucy Mirigian of Turkey/USA.

Yet I’ve never seen someone like Emiliano Mercado del Toro being referred to as being born in Spain.

Newfoundland-born SCs are all listed as born in Canada, for example. Yet, Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949.

@jef You're trying to make a false equivalency. So let me ask you this question: if someone were born in Crimea are they Ukrainian or Russian by birth? 

@ryoung122 No, he doesn't. You're the one who's using double standards in this question.

It would depend on the validating organization's country. Let's take the GRG as an example, which is based in the US. Does the US recognize Crimea's annexation by Russia? No. So it would be "UKR". But I consider this question of yours as nitpicking, this would be a special case for which discussion should be held. Mirigian was born in present-day Turkey, Kurtikov was born in present-day Ukraine.

Posted by: @024tomi

@ryoung122 No, he doesn't. You're the one who's using double standards in this question.

It would depend on the validating organization's country. Let's take the GRG as an example, which is based in the US. Does the US recognize Crimea's annexation by Russia? No. So it would be "UKR". But I consider this question of yours as nitpicking, this would be a special case for which discussion should be held. Mirigian was born in present-day Turkey, Kurtikov was born in present-day Ukraine.

Indeed, Crimea could be discussed. But Dnipro is NOT Crimea.

Interestingly, I believe Robert is really the one making a false equivalency here.

On the other hand, I don't see how it's even debatable for Mirigian, this woman, or the countless of other European SCs in similar situations (i.e Germany/Poland or Austro-Hungary).

Let's take a look at the present-day map.

Posted by: @jef

Posted by: @024tomi

@ryoung122 No, he doesn't. You're the one who's using double standards in this question.

It would depend on the validating organization's country. Let's take the GRG as an example, which is based in the US. Does the US recognize Crimea's annexation by Russia? No. So it would be "UKR". But I consider this question of yours as nitpicking, this would be a special case for which discussion should be held. Mirigian was born in present-day Turkey, Kurtikov was born in present-day Ukraine.

Indeed, Crimea could be discussed. But Dnipro is NOT Crimea.

Interestingly, I believe Robert is really the one making a false equivalency here.

 

On the other hand, I don't see how it's even debatable for Mirigian, this woman, or the countless of other European SCs in similar situations (i.e Germany/Poland or Austro-Hungary).

Let's take a look at the present-day map.

 

I think that in Mirigian's case "Armenian-American born in present-day Turkey" is probably the most accurate descriptor, because she was an ethnic Armenian and certainly never identified as Turkish, but Erzurum is part of Turkey now nevertheless. I think self-identification is the way to go in thorny disputes like this.

Posted by: @sailor-haumea

Posted by: @jef

Posted by: @024tomi

@ryoung122 No, he doesn't. You're the one who's using double standards in this question.

It would depend on the validating organization's country. Let's take the GRG as an example, which is based in the US. Does the US recognize Crimea's annexation by Russia? No. So it would be "UKR". But I consider this question of yours as nitpicking, this would be a special case for which discussion should be held. Mirigian was born in present-day Turkey, Kurtikov was born in present-day Ukraine.

Indeed, Crimea could be discussed. But Dnipro is NOT Crimea.

Interestingly, I believe Robert is really the one making a false equivalency here.

 

On the other hand, I don't see how it's even debatable for Mirigian, this woman, or the countless of other European SCs in similar situations (i.e Germany/Poland or Austro-Hungary).

Let's take a look at the present-day map.

 

I think that in Mirigian's case "Armenian-American born in present-day Turkey" is probably the most accurate descriptor, because she was an ethnic Armenian and certainly never identified as Turkish, but Erzurum is part of Turkey now nevertheless. I think self-identification is the way to go in thorny disputes like this.

I don't think anyone's disputing that there's far better/accurate ways of categorizing or describing people.

But for place of birth/death listings, I don't understand why Robert's disputing the entire system of going with present-day countries rather than countries/empires that might not exist anymore. He has supported it in the past, but now it seems his entire stance has changed just based on Lucy Mirigian. That's not being objective.

Even then, I just realized something: had anyone actually asked what Lucy Mirigian identified herself as? Or is this entire debate based on a hypothetical assumption? Self-identification isn't actually self-identification if Lucy never described herself as an "Armenian-American born in present-day Turkey"...

@024tomi There is a need for not a "one size fits all" approach to questions like these, because one size never fits all.

Aside from the fact that the GRG does NOT use "flags" and never has...because the GRG work is about SCIENCE, NOT POLITICS...there are other considerations including:

1. What does the person themselves identify as? Would they be offended if labelled with another flag?

2. Was the land sovereign independent, or a colony?

The GRG would list a case such as this one as born "Russia (now Ukraine)" because that is the factual way to put it and the person themselves identifies as Russian.

For Tekla Juniewicz, the GRG lists her as born "Austria-Hungary" (now Ukraine)" as place of birth and "Poland" as place of current residence.

In Tekla's case, she is ethnically Polish but doesn't seem too offended with the other historical designations.

@jef I'm amazed at Comments like this and perhaps it is a chance for a learning experience for everyone.

But first I'm going to reject the notion that I merely changed my approach due to just one case.

As I already pointed out, with Tekla Juniewicz for example we listed her place of birth in 2018...welll before the Lucy Mirigian case...based on the "Empire then".

And with Lucy Mirigian being Armenian, and having fled the Ottoman Empire with her family in 1909, it really makes no sense to label a persecuted minority group with their group oppressor "after the fact" when in fact Lucy and family had fled 15 years prior to Turkey's existence. Then you throw in the fact that the 1920 Treaty of Sevres de jure awarded this land to Armenia...

You can clearly see the land was de jure Armenia in the signed treaty and that to recognize an Armenian woman born in an Armenian village, with Armenian language culture, and several thousand year history, with her oppressor's flag, even as Turkey continues to DENY to the Armenian genocide...what kind of social side are you on here?

https://www.armenian-genocide.org/turkey.html

So not only has Turkey DENIED the Armenian Genocide, they 'rehabilitated' those who carried it out as "National Heroes". To label a 114-year-old woman with the flag of a nation that denies her very existence is extreme and disgusting. There is no need for it. If, at most, you want to acknowledge "born Armenia (Ottoman Empire/now Turkey)" I could see that as being objective fact, but to attach a flag to it is not.

So far 31 states acknowledge the Armenian Genocide officially as public policy:

https://www.armenian-genocide.org/recognition_countries.html

Even this Arab website acknowledges it, but not Turkey:

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1487226/middle-east

Therefore, if you are going to have flags, you should consider, for example, Israel Kristal lived under Nazi rule, but that didn't make him a Nazi. Lucy Mirigian, even more, never even lived under Turkish rule, having fled at age 2 years in advance. To attempt to modify the historical reality after the fact and mislabel her with the flag of the "Genocide denier" is simply not proper. And you should think about that.

@jef I believe you are totally far out here. The GRG has already made several attempts over many years to adjust place of birth listings to better-reflect the facts at the time, and will continue to do so. We already did so long before this case came along...as I already pointed out.  Why some people have a hang-up on the most disturbing mis-listing reflects poorly on themselves, not the GRG. You would never label a Jewish Holocaust victim with a Nazi flag. Please don't do the same injustice to a genocide survivor. And you need to learn how brutal it was...

https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/27623-genocide-armenians-key-facts.html

And in reality, the ethnic massacres began in 1894. In 1909, the year the Mirigian family made it out on a low-class boat, over 20,000 were murdered.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Armenian-Genocide/Genocide

https://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html

@024tomi 

I disagree and I already pointed out that the GRG was already listing persons at birth by their place of birth on many cases. Not sure why you and others feel such a need to mislabel an Armenian refugee with the flag/tag of her oppressor but you're not right on this on any level and you should consider looking in the mirror and asking yourself some deep-thinking questions on this. Wrong is still wrong even if 100 years later. Turkey continues to deny the Armenian Genocide and has not lived up to owning their crimes, which makes it doubly important to NOT give in to such mislabelling. And the fact is, Lucy never lived in "Turkey" which did not exist when she left in 1909.

I'm not familiar with the history of Turkey or Armenia, by the why @Dejan ,I really don't understand that you using "like" function for both Robert's comment and comments made by members who disagree/oppose with Robert.😅😅

@record_116 

Smart guys like dejan don´t categorize in a simple way. They see more than only black or only white.

@record_116 Like doesn't matter at all, if I remember I click, if not I don't. At least that like means nothing to me. I don't know what is the reason for the chase against Robert on this forum, you can speak against him, but no one will damage his honor and reputation. I don't want to speak against anyone, so whoever it is, I don't want to say anything bad.