pgibbs' Statements
 
Notifications
Clear all

pgibbs' Statements

51 Posts
8 Users
18 Likes
405 Views
930310
(@930310)
Gerontology student
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 441
 

@stoa-oid why would it not be possible for every supercentenarian to have impersonated someone else then?

There is a difference between freedom of speech and spouting nonsense. 


   
ReplyQuote
stoa-oid
(@stoa-oid)
Fan
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 100
 

@930310

My English is not good enough to answer you. I don´t know "impersonated" etc. ... and secondly I don´t want to risk a further banning. So, sorry.


   
ReplyQuote
 nzak
(@nzak)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 12
 

@930310 yes, identity switch is a possibility for every supercentenarian, and also for every other human. For Yvonne Calment it is an established fact. I understand that it frustrates you, so you would never look into any evidence, but you should prepare yourself to the inevitability that others would.


   
ReplyQuote
930310
(@930310)
Gerontology student
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 441
 

@nzak I have read every page on your "Madame Calment" wiki and I see no reason to believe in this conspiracy.


   
ReplyQuote
 nzak
(@nzak)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 12
 

@930310 Calment wiki is very useful but very outdated collection of pictures and some pieces of information. Now all their biographies are untangled, and their life is an open book (already published btw). After her real interviews became public, her lie is obvious, but did you care to listen to them? Isn't it interesting for a SC fan?  Sequence of events that led to the swap is also known. If a switch in signature from type A to the very different type B at age 60, testimony of her doctor's family, her multiple slips into talking as her daughter, her lack of memory of Jeanne's early life, her clear lies, etc can't even theoretically give you any reason to believe "in this conspiracy", is there anything that theoretically can? Or in your picture of the world, impersonation is impossible? Why?

This post was modified 3 months ago by nzak

   
ReplyQuote
(@pgibbs)
Supercentenarian Fan
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 15
Topic starter  

I dont want to upset the status quo. If admin dont want such a discussion here then people can search for the calmentvalidation tapatalk forum where the evidence can be discussed.


   
ReplyQuote
(@pgibbs)
Supercentenarian Fan
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 15
Topic starter  

Posted by: @930310

@stoa-oid why would it not be possible for every supercentenarian to have impersonated someone else then?

Zak and I reviewed validations for the oldest supercentenarians, taking a sceptical approach. For cases such as Knauss, Mortensen and Kristal where there at first appeared to be opportunities for identity switches or age exaggeration, we found new evidence that turned previously weak validation reports into much stronger cases. This contrasts with Calment where everything we look at just increasingly supports the switch. 

There were a few others such as Beard that are obviously fakes but even GRG accepts him as disputed now. Contrary to what you may think it is more often possible to look at the evidence for recent supercentenarian claims in countries with good records and determine who is genuine and who is not. 

 


   
ReplyQuote
(@chrisr)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 244
 

I shall respond to your hastily assembled preconceptions about me nzak.

I read the arguments and counter arguments to the JC matter in significant detail, abecause as already stated, from a probity perspective it is healthy to freshly review “remarkable” cases such as JC.

I reviewing these I felt that at times, emotive issues  crept into the positions of all parties.

To assist you in understanding my perspective, I do have a background as an expert witness, in receiving and giving cross examination and assisting legal council in specific areas of my experience.

This includes matters such as a hierarchy of evidence, hearsay and similar matters, but I am not a qualified lawyer.

From my own perspective I strongly concur with other opinions here, that you have only raised circumstantial matters.

Were this a legal type of matter where you were prosecuting the case of JC I doubt you would even get to trial in most western world legal systems, let alone overturn a significant wall of documentary evidence.

Allow me to give you a circumstantial response to some of your circumstantial evidence.

My own signature changed quite significantly between 40 and 45 and has not since. I have no idea why. For someone 25 years older than me and also mourning the loss of a child, why could it not happen to her?

If you find more solid and documentary evidence and can demonstrate respect for this Forum then I would objectively consider future  evidence. 

The (albeit friendly) cross examination and verbal responses of an exceptionally elderly person may well, also be considered much less reliable than the thorough assembling of all available documentation.

 

For now I won’t comment further on this. But do not wish to be seen as someone that blindly accepts matters put in front of me.


   
930310 reacted
ReplyQuote
 nzak
(@nzak)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 12
 

@chrisr Her signature switched one year before the death, not after. You can see it on the sample posted on this thread above. But do you really wish to look into the evidence? 

Can you post your signatures to show how they suddenly switched from a stable type A to a stable type B, so that we can compare with the Calment signature switch? Did your switch happen at a moment when your notary retired, and another one came from another town? And you were fighting with tuberculosis which you wanted to hide? You dismiss the testimony, but it allows to reconstruct her real biography. For those who would care to listen to it, the switch becomes absolutely obvious. But it is hard and time consuming, it is easier to claim that you "already looked into the evidence". Anyway, we have done all the job already, and it is just a matter of time until the obvious truth is widely accepted. Then people would not believe that anybody thought she is genuine.

This post was modified 3 months ago by nzak

   
ReplyQuote
 nzak
(@nzak)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 12
 

@chrisr Even if she was not caught on video switching her identity, a competent court would certainly see the obvious if it looks in the whole evidence. Bayesian inference is often used in courts and such analysis gives an astronomic ratio in favor of the switch

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by nzak

   
ReplyQuote
(@pgibbs)
Supercentenarian Fan
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 15
Topic starter  

Posted by: @chrisr

From my own perspective I strongly concur with other opinions here, that you have only raised circumstantial matters.

Were this a legal type of matter where you were prosecuting the case of JC I doubt you would even get to trial in most western world legal systems, let alone overturn a significant wall of documentary evidence.

Allow me to give you a circumstantial response to some of your circumstantial evidence.

My own signature changed quite significantly between 40 and 45 and has not since. I have no idea why. For someone 25 years older than me and also mourning the loss of a child, why could it not happen to her?

If you find more solid and documentary evidence and can demonstrate respect for this Forum then I would objectively consider future  evidence. 

The (albeit friendly) cross examination and verbal responses of an exceptionally elderly person may well, also be considered much less reliable than the thorough assembling of all available documentation.

It is a misconception that circumstantial evidence is necessarily weak while official documents are always strong. One or two items of circumstantial evidence would not be sufficient to provide a guilty verdict beyond reasonable doubt, but enough items of good circumstantial evidence can be. Documentary evidence on the other hand can be just self-declared by the person under suspicion. Checks are weak or non-existent. In this case it is easy to understand that Yvonne Calment and her family filed a fraudulent declaration of death in 1934. From that point on they just had to maintain the lie on all future documents. There are plenty of cases where documentary evidence of longevity has been proven to be misleading. In the case of Carol C White one mistake was copied many times. In France Marie-Philomene Flassayer used an older siblings birth record for her marriage and the error persisted until her death making her appear ten years older on her death record. Both of these cases had been accepted by GWR before being debunked.

This year INSERM published 15 hours of audio tape recordings of Mme Calment's testimony. We are the only ones who have independently checked this evidence and we were shocked by how revealing her testimony was. We have cross-checked with many historical documents to compare her testimony with reality.  Everyone should put aside any previous conclusions and assumptions until they have studied it along with the other new evidence we found.

The main problem with circumstantial evidence is that it takes a lot of time and effort to assimilate it and form a conclusion. Zak and I have been studying the evidence for a long time and we have written it up in as much detail as possible for others to follow. Obviously a single DNA test would make it much easier to form a consensus because it would be deterministic on its own and could overrule all other evidence whether documentary or testimonial, but for now that test is not on the cards.

 

This post was modified 3 months ago 4 times by pgibbs

   
ReplyQuote
930310
(@930310)
Gerontology student
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 441
 

@pgibbs I have personally researched over 3 000 supercentenarians and collected documentation and articles about them and their lives. So contrary to what you believe, I actually know what I'm doing and how age validation works.

You claim not to be interested in Jeanne Calment's DNA, yet you keep on mentioning it.


   
ChrisR reacted
ReplyQuote
(@pgibbs)
Supercentenarian Fan
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 15
Topic starter  

Posted by: @930310

@pgibbs I have personally researched over 3 000 supercentenarians and collected documentation and articles about them and their lives. So contrary to what you believe, I actually know what I'm doing and how age validation works.

You claim not to be interested in Jeanne Calment's DNA, yet you keep on mentioning it.

I did not say that we are not interested in her DNA, I said "The accusations made against us that we want to obtain her DNA for other reasons are not true." We would like to see the DNA test carried out because it would easily convince many scientists without them having to study all the testimonial and documentary evidence.

I also have not said that you do not know how age validation works. I just argue against specific points you make. We do not accept arguments from authority over evidence.

 

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by pgibbs

   
ReplyQuote
Admin
(@admin)
Administrator Admin
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 326
 

Dear all,

 

After deliberation within the Admin Team (including moderators) we have decided to suspend @nzak and @pgibbs for the time being.

 

The main motivations were:

  1. Playing the victim and showcasing manipulative, toxic behaviour.
  2. Pushing their own agenda by continuously breaking forum rules. (Once again promoting their own publication, a post that has once more been removed.)
  3. Showing disrespect to other members of this forum by belittling them.

 

Let's hope the peace and quiet can now return to this forum.


   
ReplyQuote
Admin
(@admin)
Administrator Admin
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 326
 

Posted by: @stoa-oid

I don´t want to get involved between the different parties here. I will stay neutral, but why should it be not possible to discuss the age of J. Calment?

Is it a sacrilege to reflect about this really unbelievable lifespan of a person and find his own thoughts and theories?

I don´t think so. I am grateful that there are members who cherish a real scientific discourse.

My personal opinion is that Calment could have reached 122 years, but it is not cast in stone only because some „schools“ of scientists came to this conclusion.

A switch of identities is not totally impossible as long there is not an undisputed dna sample of Calment.

Hopefully I am allowed to post this in the forum. In the new forum. A forum upholding freedom of speech.

 

Not to worry, there is no reason for a warning or a suspension based on this post - everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

And yes, over here too we believe that extreme claims require a thorough case review, which has been done time and time again in the case of Mrs Calment. However, all investigations - bar the intriguing one performed by Mr Zak and Mr Gibbs - have come to the same conclusion: Mrs Calment died at the age of 122. The "evidence" provided by the alternative research is without any context (such as the "transcript" of snippets of the interview not being in French and being very incomplete) and is thus very manipulative, yet presented as "the truth". Evidence/research debunking the claim of Mr Zak and Mr Gibbs can be found all over the Internet. 🙂 

 


   
ChrisR reacted
ReplyQuote
stoa-oid
(@stoa-oid)
Fan
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 100
 

I have noticed that one wants quiet and peace in the forum. So do I.

I don´t want to cause any troubles, but I feel very disappointed in my heart that there is no place for nzak and pgibbs here! They are polite and serious scientists. They had deserved to stay with us.

After a humiliation for 3 months they won´t come back again... It is a pitty.

Nzak and pgibbs, stay safe and sound, if you read this words as guests. Kind regards from Austria to our fraternal people Russia.


   
ReplyQuote
024Tomi
(@024tomi)
Fan and researcher
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 172
 

@stoa-oid I beg to differ when it comes to them being "serious scientists".

ESO Correspondent for Hungary (since 2020)
GRG Correspondent for Hungary (since 2020)
Tracker and researcher of Hungarian and other Central European (super)centenarians (since 2016)
Enthusiast of extreme longevity (since forever)


   
heatwave116 reacted
ReplyQuote
stoa-oid
(@stoa-oid)
Fan
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 100
 

@tomi

As far as I know they do have a doctor degree. I don´t have;-).


   
ReplyQuote
(@chrisr)
Fan
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 244
 

Qualifications only give you a start in life.

Where people go from there and how they perform is up to them. 

I agree with 024Tomi in respect of his comments.

Whether they have been directed to come to this conclusion or just decided that JC’s case must’ be wrong, it’s fair to say they have found no solid evidence to back it up.

Perhaps more importantly they’ve lost all perspective on the case, just convinced JC was a fraud and blind towards all the other evidence.


   
heatwave116 and 024Tomi reacted
ReplyQuote
930310
(@930310)
Gerontology student
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 441
 

@stoa-oid they are mathematicians and not gerontologists. Arguing that they are more correct because they have PhDs is like entrusting people with degrees in economics to determine your dietary needs.


   
ChrisR and 024Tomi reacted
ReplyQuote
stoa-oid
(@stoa-oid)
Fan
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 100
 

Obviously I know the background of the members.

Every doctor of each discipline has seriously learned how to work academically. So there is no single doubt that pgibbs and nzak are dignified and serious scientists.

It is not forbidden to accept (gelten lassen in German) different discourses.

As a more than middle-aged person I have learnt to accept minorities and non-mainstream theories.

This is my closing word concerning this matter knowing that there will be no unity. There is no need for.


   
ReplyQuote
Page 2 / 2
Share: