Global Supercentenarian Forum
The Supercentenarian World
Notifications
Clear all
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
FWIW, the odds of two siblings sharing the same birthday are extremely low but not zero. If there are only two siblings in total, then the odds of this should be 1 in 365 (or 366 for leap years), no?
diego reacted
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
1 January 1999
[list]
Charles Edward Graves (born August 4, 1888; male) deserves to be on this list. We already have a document for him from within the 20-year-window, specifically his 1896 school census record, on which I am presuming that his age was NOT rounded. You can find this record on the thread for Mr. Graves on the 110 Club.
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
1 January 1999
[list]
Charles Edward Graves (born August 4, 1888; male) deserves to be on this list. We already have a document for him from within the 20-year-window, specifically his 1896 school census record, on which I am presuming that his age was NOT rounded. You can find this record on the thread for Mr. Graves on the 110 Club.
I agree that he's almost certainly the age claimed, but the "20 year window" really shouldn't be used for validating cases anymore.
Another 1888-born male SC who's likely the age claimed is Manoel Alves Teixeira (25 Dec 1888-1 Sep 1999) of Brazil, who was recognized by GWR in the late 90s for being in the longest-lasting marriage in the world (82 years). His wife, Filomena Maria De Oliveira (12 Jun 1890-27 Sep 1998), died less than a year before her husband at the age of 108, which would've almost certainly been an all-time world record for the highest-combined age of a married couple in 1999. Their claimed ages are supported by their marriage record, but we'd obviously need their baptismal records to fully verify their ages. The only issue is that they were both born in the state of Bahia, which has basically no records online.
Despite being included in the 1998 edition of Guinness World Records, it seems like they were completely forgotten about by longevity researchers, since there's no mention of either of them on any forums that I can find. It's possible someone posted about them in the WOP group, but there's obviously no way of knowing anymore.
Profile picture: Marita Camacho Quirós (1911-Present)
EstebanGonzalez reacted
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
1 January 1999
[list]
Charles Edward Graves (born August 4, 1888; male) deserves to be on this list. We already have a document for him from within the 20-year-window, specifically his 1896 school census record, on which I am presuming that his age was NOT rounded. You can find this record on the thread for Mr. Graves on the 110 Club.
I agree that he's almost certainly the age claimed, but the "20 year window" really shouldn't be used for validating cases anymore.
Another 1888-born male SC that's likely the age claimed is Manoel Alves Teixeira (25 Dec 1888-1 Sep 1999) of Brazil, who was recognized by GWR in the late 90s for being in the longest-lasting marriage in the world (82 years). His wife, Filomena Maria De Oliveira (12 Jun 1890-27 Sep 1998), died less than a year before her husband at the age of 108, which would've almost certainly been an all-time world record for the highest-combined age of a married couple in 1999. Their claimed ages are supported by their marriage record, but we'd obviously need their baptismal records to fully verify their ages. The only issue is that they were both born in the state of Bahia, which has basically no records online.
Despite being included in the 1998 edition of Guinness World Records, it seems like they were completely forgotten about by longevity researchers, since there's no mention of either of them on any forums that I can find. It's possible someone posted about them in the WOP group, but there's obviously no way of knowing anymore.
In regards to the 20-year-window no longer being used, I disagree. Apparently based on the ESO's website, they still use it, though they also differentiate between high-level verified cases and mid-level verified cases based on whether the early-life document (the one from within the 20-year-window) contains a full date of birth or not. If it does, then it's a high-level verified case; else, it's a mid-level verified case.
I'm not saying that the 20-year-window is ideal. It isn't. If there is a chance to secure earlier documentation, then we should. But the problem remains that a lot of cases would have to be thrown out without the 20-year-window, including past WOLM Israel Kristal and Francisco Nunes Olivera. (The latter had his birth records destroyed in the Spanish Civil War, apparently, so AFAIK his conscription papers were used to verify his age instead.)
For that matter, with one Latin American case, Bienvenida Vergara de Cano, the 20-year-window was also used by the GRG to help verify her case since her baptismal record is incomplete (partially destroyed) but her marriage record is within the 20-year-window (she got married at age 18).
I support keeping the 20-year-window but searching for additional, earlier documentation whenever possible. Sometimes this could significantly pay off (Delphia Welford), but at other times, possibly not. For instance, if a Jew from a Muslim country born in the 1930s moved to Israel in 1949, then their Israeli immigration record might be their first record/document that lists their age. Record-keeping in Muslim countries might not have been that good in the early 20th century, at least based on my own suspicions, especially for poorer people.
Interesting Brazilian case. There is, of course, also a Costa Rican man who was born in 1888 and who reached SC status who got verified by LAS: Antonio Ardon Soto. I hope that this Brazilian man and, if necessary, his wife will eventually get verified, though I don't know what likelihood this will be.
As a side note, I wonder just how many verifiable living Latin American male SCs there were in total on January 1, 2010. There were Horacio Celi Mendoza and Mauro Ambriz Tapia, but just how many additional, undiscovered 1800s-born male Latin American SC cases do you think could qualify for this?
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
https://europeansupercentenarians.org/about.php
"The validation process
In order to thoroughly and reliably validate a supercentenarian, various documents are required to prove their age. In addition to these documents, peripheral information such as a family tree and biographical details may also be of value in strengthening the validation. With regard to the submitted documentation, validation can be completed once the following criteria are met:
- At least one of the submitted documents must be from the first twenty years of the claimant's life. Examples of such a document are an original birth record or baptismal record, or census records.
- At least one of the submitted documents must be from an event in the "middle" of the claimant's life, such as a marriage record (in case of a female claimant this proves name change), a child's birth record, or census records.
- At least one of the submitted documents must be from the claimant's later life, such as an electoral role record, recent ID card, passport, or driving licence. In case of a deceased supercentenarian, this late-life document could also be a death record.*
- The researchers who submit documentation for a supercentenarian will also provide a validation summary in English (including translations of documents), in which they use unique identifiers to explain how the different documents prove that the person at birth is the same person who attained an age of 110 or above. This validation will subsequently be under review; after approval, the case is accepted as validated.
* Due to stricter European privacy laws, effective 25 May 2018, it has become more difficult to obtain copies of recent ID cards, passports, or driving licences. Therefore, a validation can now also take place by providing thorough information on a family tree, as well as including media coverage that proves the person in question has consistently claimed to be of this age for a number of years."
12/02/2023 3:42 pm
But the problem remains that a lot of cases would have to be thrown out without the 20-year-window, including past WOLM Israel Kristal and Francisco Nunes Olivera. (The latter had his birth records destroyed in the Spanish Civil War, apparently, so AFAIK his conscription papers were used to verify his age instead.)
Should have mentioned past WOLM John Painter as well. He was also verified thanks to the 20-year-window (1900 US Census). We're pretty sure that he was born in September 1888 because he had an elder brother born in early 1887 and a younger sister born in early 1890. They both claimed the same birth dates and birth years throughout their entire lives. John Painter's WWI draft registration card and 1919 military discharge papers also both list him as being born on September 20, 1888.
12/02/2023 3:45 pm
May she RIP. 🙁
As a side note, if one is interested in finding more verifiable Muslim extremely old people, wouldn't Russia (excluding the Caucasus) and Crimea (Crimean Tatars) be good places to start looking for this? One would think that Muslims from those places would have been more likely to have documentation, including early-life documentation, 110+ years ago relative to Muslims from other places, other than perhaps the Balkans.
12/02/2023 3:46 pm
@024tomi There's an answer for this, and an easy one: We haven’t check for Anisio’s siblings yet. With Tomas, we checked very well his children and siblings. But with Anisio, we can’t, since his birthplace isn’t online as far as I know....That’s why we can’t rule out identity swapping yet. Even if Anisio was 114 and not 116, I'm not sure yet if he would have been pending, according to our standards....Why? Let's take a look into Horacio...before we made him pending, we checked a lot for his siblings, children and death records of his town, just to make sure. And for Tomas, Stefan checked well for the siblings as well and in fact he had a genealogical tree…he had only sisters. Stefan went checking the summaries in the books to make sure as well. Plus, Tomas can be seen with one of his oldest daughter on a photo. This alone makes him stronger than Anisio, even with less documents.
Question about Anisio: Were his parents ever slaves? I'm wondering because slavery in Brazil ended even later than it did in the US.
12/02/2023 3:46 pm
@024tomi There's an answer for this, and an easy one: We haven’t check for Anisio’s siblings yet. With Tomas, we checked very well his children and siblings. But with Anisio, we can’t, since his birthplace isn’t online as far as I know....That’s why we can’t rule out identity swapping yet. Even if Anisio was 114 and not 116, I'm not sure yet if he would have been pending, according to our standards....Why? Let's take a look into Horacio...before we made him pending, we checked a lot for his siblings, children and death records of his town, just to make sure. And for Tomas, Stefan checked well for the siblings as well and in fact he had a genealogical tree…he had only sisters. Stefan went checking the summaries in the books to make sure as well. Plus, Tomas can be seen with one of his oldest daughter on a photo. This alone makes him stronger than Anisio, even with less documents.
Question about Anisio: Were his parents ever slaves? I'm wondering because slavery in Brazil ended even later than it did in the US.
In Brazil ended slavery in 1888
12/02/2023 3:46 pm
@024tomi There's an answer for this, and an easy one: We haven’t check for Anisio’s siblings yet. With Tomas, we checked very well his children and siblings. But with Anisio, we can’t, since his birthplace isn’t online as far as I know....That’s why we can’t rule out identity swapping yet. Even if Anisio was 114 and not 116, I'm not sure yet if he would have been pending, according to our standards....Why? Let's take a look into Horacio...before we made him pending, we checked a lot for his siblings, children and death records of his town, just to make sure. And for Tomas, Stefan checked well for the siblings as well and in fact he had a genealogical tree…he had only sisters. Stefan went checking the summaries in the books to make sure as well. Plus, Tomas can be seen with one of his oldest daughter on a photo. This alone makes him stronger than Anisio, even with less documents.
Question about Anisio: Were his parents ever slaves? I'm wondering because slavery in Brazil ended even later than it did in the US.
In Brazil ended slavery in 1888
Yes, but were Anisio's parents ever slaves?
12/02/2023 3:47 pm
Looks like a lot of SCs are shorter than average, no? If so, could this help explain why they lived so long? As in, the hypothesis that it's easier for the heart to adequately pump blood throughout the body when there is less of the body to pump blood into?
12/02/2023 3:51 pm
Sad that we don't have anything from before the 1900 US Census to support an 1888 birth year for Elena Slough. That's what she claimed later on in her life, and it might very well be accurate (her elder brother Sylvester is listed as being born in 1887 in the 1900 US Census, but claimed birth in 1886 later on in his life), but we don't appear to be capable of proving this, unfortunately. If we were, then she would have been the WOLP at the time of her death, the last surviving person born in 1888 (Sadie Caver's case is more questionable due to the possibility of an identity switch), and the only 1888-born person to reach age 115+.
12/02/2023 3:52 pm
Top 10 World's Oldest Living Men (as of 9th January 2023)
Today's update (RIP Mr. Monroy and Mr. Van Zandijcke)
(documented or partially documented)1. Juan Vicente Perez Mora (b. 27 May 1909), 113,
Venezuela World's Oldest Living Man
2. Eusebio Quintero Lopez (b. 6 March 1910), 112,Colombia
3. Efraín Antonio Rios García (b. 4 April 1910), 112,
4. Santos Ildebrando Rivas (b. 17 August 1911), 111, 🇸🇻 El Salvador
5. Gisaburō Sonobe (b. 6 November 1911), 111, 🇯🇵 Japan
6. Reuben Sinclair (b. 5 December 1911), 111, 🇨🇦 Canada
7. Joe Baker (b. 29 January 1912), 110, 🇺🇸 USA
8. Hans Schornack (b. 29 February 1912), 110, 🇩🇪 Germany
9. André Ludwig (b. 6 June 1912), 110, 🇫🇷 France
10. Anonymous of Shinagawa, Tokyo pr. (b. July 1912), 110, 🇯🇵 Japan
Interesting that the four oldest living men are all Latin American and that if it wasn't for Latin America, then the current WOLM would just barely be over 111 years old.
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
I know it has nothing to do with longevity but I noticed that every female supercentenarian from Italy has a first name ending with the letter "a", EXCEPT for Mrs. Ines Sommovigo!
I thought this would be an interesting thing to point out, as I would guess it is a rarity among supercentenarians, that all the SC females of your country have a name ending with the same letter except 1.
Thoughts on opening a topic of "Rare occurrences among Supercentenarians"?
|Male| 🎮Gamer🎮 > 👕Fashion Lover👕 > 🕶Chore Motivator🕶
Favorite Male SC: Juan Vicente Pérez Mora
Favorite Female SCs: Lucile Randon & Kane Tanaka
😁And the kind of guy that's always down to chat😁
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk I don't know how it is in Italy, but in Portugal 99% of female first names end with the letter "a", but I think it must be similar in Italy.
ESO Correspondent for Portugal
AQ reacted
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@gabriel_pt oh wow, that's very interesting! I had no idea that it was that common! I thought it was like a million to one chance so I had to point it out. You are probably right that it is probably very similar in Italy.
|Male| 🎮Gamer🎮 > 👕Fashion Lover👕 > 🕶Chore Motivator🕶
Favorite Male SC: Juan Vicente Pérez Mora
Favorite Female SCs: Lucile Randon & Kane Tanaka
😁And the kind of guy that's always down to chat😁
Gabriel_PT reacted
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk Yes, as Gabriel said, it is very common in Italy to have female first names ending with the letter A.
http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
Persone viventi più longeve in Italia – Supercentenari d'Italia (supercentenariditalia.it)
Gabriel_PT reacted
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
I play football with 4 or 5 Italian guys and their surnames all end in I, A or O.
Ciampa, Donofrio, Rossi, Cigliano and Di Giovanni.
Unfortunately they've also taught the rest of us most of the Italian swear words as well 😀 😀 😀 .
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
It’s interesting looking back at the “peak” of the numbers (21 to 22) around the end of 2015 and early 2016.
I also remember the amazing group of 115 to 117 year olds that pretty much all arrived at the same time. That was an amazing run given the population of Italy and more like the set of statistics one would have expected from Europe as a whole.
We can only hope those days return.
One wonders just how long Maria Redaelli would have lived if it wasn't for her fatal fall. I think that her odds of living to age 115+ were very good, maybe even to age 116+.
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk Yes, as Gabriel said, it is very common in Italy to have female first names ending with the letter A.
I suspect that the same is also true in Slavic countries.
Interestingly enough, Rut (Ruth) is an Italian female name that does not end with an A, though I don't think that we actually had an Italian SC with that name yet.
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk Yes, as Gabriel said, it is very common in Italy to have female first names ending with the letter A.
I suspect that the same is also true in Slavic countries.
Interestingly enough, Rut (Ruth) is an Italian female name that does not end with an A, though I don't think that we actually had an Italian SC with that name yet.
Rut is not an italian female name.
Maybe you mean Rita.
http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
Persone viventi più longeve in Italia – Supercentenari d'Italia (supercentenariditalia.it)
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk Yes, as Gabriel said, it is very common in Italy to have female first names ending with the letter A.
I suspect that the same is also true in Slavic countries.
Interestingly enough, Rut (Ruth) is an Italian female name that does not end with an A, though I don't think that we actually had an Italian SC with that name yet.
Rut is not an italian female name.
Maybe you mean Rita.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_(given_name)
"
12/02/2023 3:55 pm
@aquanaut_chalk Yes, as Gabriel said, it is very common in Italy to have female first names ending with the letter A.
I suspect that the same is also true in Slavic countries.
Interestingly enough, Rut (Ruth) is an Italian female name that does not end with an A, though I don't think that we actually had an Italian SC with that name yet.
Rut is not an italian female name.
Maybe you mean Rita.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_(given_name)
"
Nut used in Italy.
Maybe used by italian emigrants who live in the US, in Germany etc.
http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
Persone viventi più longeve in Italia – Supercentenari d'Italia (supercentenariditalia.it)
12/02/2023 3:57 pm
As of 1 January 2023: Official data from the pension insurance fund of the Czech Republic. (every new update is every three months)
Age Men Women 100 years 55 371 101 years 25 224 102 years 18 87 103 years 5 51 104 years 1 14 105 years 0 15 106 years 0 4 107 years 0 0 108 years 0 0 109 years 0 3
Three women born in 1913 (all known and identified) one man born in 1918 from Prague, five men born in 1919 (one known and identified).
Source: 31.12.2022: https://data.cssz.cz/web/otevrena-data/graf-vekove-slozeni-stoletych-a-starsich-duchodcu
I'm actually surprised as the low longevity of Czech men relative to US men even adjusting for population. There are around 32 times more Americans than Czechs, but still, the US has way more than one currently living 109+ year-old man. (A Czech male population that was 32 times larger would likely have one 109-year-old man with a 50% annual mortality rate, since the odds of a 104-year-old man living for another five years would be 1 in 32 with that specific annual mortality rate.)
12/02/2023 3:57 pm
FWIW, Czech life expectancy is actually slightly higher than the US one. For male life expectancy, I would presume that it would likely at least be comparable, if not slightly higher, for the Czechs.
Czechia hasn't suffered as badly under Communism as some other countries did. Maybe because it was much more industrialized by the time that Communist rule began there.
12/02/2023 11:52 pm
@Admin Thanks for the tips. I will try my best to follow them from now on.
Also, I have just taken a detailed look at the forum rules here:
https://globalsupercentenarianforum.com/index.php/community/forumguide/rules-guidelines/
Actually, come to think of it, I've created this topic (click!), so it's safe for you to ask specific questions. I will also redirect posts there if they venture off-topic in other topics. 🙃
Thank you very much. Also, I've got a question: Can I try verifying and double-checking SCs (and semi-SCs) in this thread as well?
13/02/2023 12:01 am
Recent validations, all accepted on 11 February 2023:
Line Marmajou, FRA, 20 Dec 1901 - 25 Apr 2012, 110 years and 127 days.
Jeanne Hardouin, FRA, 23 Jan 1902 - 26 Feb 2012, 110 years and 34 days.
Geneviève Huet, FRA, 29 Jan 1902 - 21 Feb 2012, 110 years and 23 days.
Ida Ortolani, USA/ITA, 4 Oct 1912 - Present, 110 years.
The case of Mrs Ida Ortolani was a difficult decision, because we feel she was indeed most likely born on 4 September 1912. However, we have to stay true to our principles here, and go with what we can prove - the oldest document(s) support a DOB of 4 October 1912. And for now, there aren't any older documents available disproving this.
Dear Marco,
I have a question: If your organization (the ESO) was in charge of verifying American SCs, how would it verify a case like Aaron Bazemore's? The 1900 US Census lists him as being born in March 1880 (though we can't find an 1880 US Census entry for him, which suggests that he was likely born in 1881 or later), but his World War I draft registration card (from 1918) lists him as being born on February 20, 1881, which is the same birthdate that he claimed for the rest of his life (albeit sometimes claiming a different birth year later on, before reverting back to 1881 as his birth year in his old age).
If your organization was in charge of verifying American SCs such as him, would you go with March 1881 (even though his 1900 US Census entry does not give an exact date of birth but only a month and a year of birth) or with February 20, 1881?
13/02/2023 12:07 am
Recent validations, all accepted on 11 February 2023:
Line Marmajou, FRA, 20 Dec 1901 - 25 Apr 2012, 110 years and 127 days.
Jeanne Hardouin, FRA, 23 Jan 1902 - 26 Feb 2012, 110 years and 34 days.
Geneviève Huet, FRA, 29 Jan 1902 - 21 Feb 2012, 110 years and 23 days.
Ida Ortolani, USA/ITA, 4 Oct 1912 - Present, 110 years.
The case of Mrs Ida Ortolani was a difficult decision, because we feel she was indeed most likely born on 4 September 1912. However, we have to stay true to our principles here, and go with what we can prove - the oldest document(s) support a DOB of 4 October 1912. And for now, there aren't any older documents available disproving this.
Dear Marco,
I have a question: If your organization (the ESO) was in charge of verifying American SCs, how would it verify a case like Aaron Bazemore's? The 1900 US Census lists him as being born in March 1880 (though we can't find an 1880 US Census entry for him, which suggests that he was likely born in 1881 or later), but his World War I draft registration card (from 1918) lists him as being born on February 20, 1881, which is the same birthdate that he claimed for the rest of his life (albeit sometimes claiming a different birth year later on, before reverting back to 1881 as his birth year in his old age).
If your organization was in charge of verifying American SCs such as him, would you go with March 1881 (even though his 1900 US Census entry does not give an exact date of birth but only a month and a year of birth) or with February 20, 1881?
Gerald Gilman's case is another example of this. His 1900 US Census entry lists May 1893 as his month and year of birth, without giving an exact birth date for him. But his World War I draft registration card (from 1917, I think) gives April 30, 1893, which is also what he claimed later on in his life.
Of course, one could distinguish Ida Ortolani's case from Aaron Bazemore's and Gerald Gilman's cases due to the fact that their earliest (undisputed) documents don't contain an exact date of birth for them, only a month and a year, whereas their World War I draft registration cards are (I think) the first documents that actually contain a full date of birth for them.
13/02/2023 6:44 am
I don't have access to the PM function on this forum:
So, I'll just post the relevant research here, if you don't mind:
[links to documents]
Thanks for these links. Our strategy is to first see if we can validate SCs with at a high level validation, so once we will properly research these men and this woman, we'll use these links/docs as a starting point.
FWIW, these men have their own Gerontology Wiki articles. This woman, regrettably, does not, at least not yet.
And Yes, fair point about wanting high-level validations for SCs. For Rosa Blaser Clark, this should not be too difficult if Swiss records are easily accessible, but for these two men, it could be much harder since one of them was born in Russia and another one of them was born in Ukraine.
As a side note, would you be willing to accept Guinness World Records verification by proxy? GWR has apparently previously verified Dumitru Comanescu's (1908-2020) claimed age; would that be enough for the ESO to do the same by simply trusting GWR? Or do you need to personally look at the relevant documentation?
"The previous oldest living man was recognized by Guinness World Records as Romania’s Dumitru Comănescu (b. November 21, 1908). He held the record for less than one month before his passing on June 27, 2020, at the age of 111 years 219 days. Following his passing, Guinness World Records then received evidence in support of Emilio, who was born three months earlier than Dumitru."
Also, your organization also engages in SC claim debunking, if I recall correctly. If so, then there is a SC claimant (died in the US but born in Rhodes, now in Greece) who was probably not a SC at the time of his death:
https://the110club.com/nissim-nass-almeleh-1885-1997-t16814.html
But documentation from Rhodes would need to be acquired in order to be able to determine his age with certainty. It was likely slightly below 110, but we simply can't be 100% sure without an original birth record or something of that sort. He doesn't have a baptismal record since he was Jewish.
13/02/2023 6:03 pm
Dear Marco,
I have a question: If your organization (the ESO) was in charge of verifying American SCs, how would it verify a case like Aaron Bazemore's? The 1900 US Census lists him as being born in March 1880 (though we can't find an 1880 US Census entry for him, which suggests that he was likely born in 1881 or later), but his World War I draft registration card (from 1918) lists him as being born on February 20, 1881, which is the same birthdate that he claimed for the rest of his life (albeit sometimes claiming a different birth year later on, before reverting back to 1881 as his birth year in his old age).
If your organization was in charge of verifying American SCs such as him, would you go with March 1881 (even though his 1900 US Census entry does not give an exact date of birth but only a month and a year of birth) or with February 20, 1881?
Hi Futurist,
If these were the earliest two pieces of evidence available, we probably wouldn't verify his age (yet), as they show conflicting years of birth. In addition, as the only document from within the (possible) twenty years of birth does not show an exact date of birth, we wouldn't validate him to the highest degree of certainty.
And I suppose we wouldn't go with any DOB until more early-life evidence was found.
Overduidelijk misschien.
diego reacted
