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Doyenne and Doyen of Chile

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Ale76
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The Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Dominga Coca Garcia (born 14 September 1908, 113).
Ms. Coca Garcia currently lives in Santiago, Chile.
Her case is currently pending on LAS.
At 113:

About the Doyen of of Chile there are no SCs or almost SCs men pending or validated by LAS.

http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
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Ale76
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Mrs. Elena Barrientos Clerc of Punta Arenas, Magallanes Province (CHI), sadly passed away on 21 July 2022, aged 110 years, 155 days.

She was born in the same town on 16 February 1912.

At the time of her death, she was the fourth-oldest known (documented) living person in Chile.

RIP

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Ale76
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Coyote77 wrote:

Hello,

I post it on this thread because I didn't know where else to put. Privately, the members of LAS we were highly concerned regarding Dominga's case, even though we never said it publicly. We were concerned about a possible accidental identity swapping. The first person to have suggested this was Stefan, more than a year ago...the fact the family had a copy of her birth record with them, and her ID card was a late one, based in the copy of the birth certificate. This means, her family could have mistakely found an older sister, with the same name of Dominga, who died in infancy, and they thought it ''their'' Dominga''. Documentation for her birthplace was never online, so we were never able to do a sibling check or even checking the death records, as we usually do with our cases. Since some months ago, we were even thinking about removing her from the pending list, and I tried to contact the church of her hometown but they never answered me. Some days ago, a tweet of a researcher called Diego resolved our mystery. So, checking in the registry of the birthplace of Dominga, he found out that the Dominga born in 1908...DIED IN 1909! Aged only some months old (RC Negreiros, D, 1909, 340). So on, she is a sister of the Dominga Coca who still still alive. Checking the register of Negreitos, we can find in 1910 Ambrosio Coca García. In 1912, Victoria Coca Garcia. In 1914 Delfina Coca García was born. 1915, Martina Coca. Then, in 1918 Saturnina was born, and the following year (after the death of the first) a second Saturnina Coca García was born. In 1920 Paulina was born. There is no birth of another Dominga Coca García in Negreiros. The question remains open: when was Dominga Coca García born? Not in 1908, for sure. However, we could make an assumption based in the information gave in the videos of her at 110. According to them, she was the fifth of fourteen children. Diego found out that the Dominga from 1908 was in fact the oldest of the siblings, born a year after the marriage of her parents (1907). After Dominga, we have:

2- Ambrosio
3-Victoria
4-Delfina
5-Martina

But since the family probably didn't count the Dominga from 1908 among the siblings, we can make the assumption Martina was the fourth, and our Dominga being born after Martina, which, curiously, fells in a gap of some years among the siblings. Briefly say, we can be relatively sure the living Dominga was born around 1917.

We will make sure those type of mistakes will never happen in the future for our pending cases. For now, we will just let as pending those cases that are strong enough to think they're real. 

Sincerely,
Santiago

http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
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Ale76
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Posted by: @ale76

Coyote77 wrote:

Hello,

I post it on this thread because I didn't know where else to put. Privately, the members of LAS we were highly concerned regarding Dominga's case, even though we never said it publicly. We were concerned about a possible accidental identity swapping. The first person to have suggested this was Stefan, more than a year ago...the fact the family had a copy of her birth record with them, and her ID card was a late one, based in the copy of the birth certificate. This means, her family could have mistakely found an older sister, with the same name of Dominga, who died in infancy, and they thought it ''their'' Dominga''. Documentation for her birthplace was never online, so we were never able to do a sibling check or even checking the death records, as we usually do with our cases. Since some months ago, we were even thinking about removing her from the pending list, and I tried to contact the church of her hometown but they never answered me. Some days ago, a tweet of a researcher called Diego resolved our mystery. So, checking in the registry of the birthplace of Dominga, he found out that the Dominga born in 1908...DIED IN 1909! Aged only some months old (RC Negreiros, D, 1909, 340). So on, she is a sister of the Dominga Coca who still still alive. Checking the register of Negreitos, we can find in 1910 Ambrosio Coca García. In 1912, Victoria Coca Garcia. In 1914 Delfina Coca García was born. 1915, Martina Coca. Then, in 1918 Saturnina was born, and the following year (after the death of the first) a second Saturnina Coca García was born. In 1920 Paulina was born. There is no birth of another Dominga Coca García in Negreiros. The question remains open: when was Dominga Coca García born? Not in 1908, for sure. However, we could make an assumption based in the information gave in the videos of her at 110. According to them, she was the fifth of fourteen children. Diego found out that the Dominga from 1908 was in fact the oldest of the siblings, born a year after the marriage of her parents (1907). After Dominga, we have:

2- Ambrosio
3-Victoria
4-Delfina
5-Martina

But since the family probably didn't count the Dominga from 1908 among the siblings, we can make the assumption Martina was the fourth, and our Dominga being born after Martina, which, curiously, fells in a gap of some years among the siblings. Briefly say, we can be relatively sure the living Dominga was born around 1917.

We will make sure those type of mistakes will never happen in the future for our pending cases. For now, we will just let as pending those cases that are strong enough to think they're real. 

Sincerely,
Santiago

Case debunked... 🥲

http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
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ChrisR
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Sad to see this outcome, but great research work from the team.


   
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ChrisR
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It’s also fair to say that outcomes of this type are more likely to enhance, rather than reduce the perceptions of the research team.

Many validations have an element of uncertainly to them and for a team to continue  to challenge Pending cases and report on what we might call “late discoveries” is also a great practice.

All in all a very “healthy and robust process” though not the outcome we’d have all wanted.


   
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Aquanaut
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Aw man I'm sorry to hear this news about Mrs. Dominga Coca Garcia. 

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Leonor Sobrino Sanz (8 Aug 1912 - 17 Oct 2022) was one of the oldest living people in Chile at the time of her death. She was born in Chiguayante, Chile to Spanish-born parents Eladio Sobrino Segovia and Luz Sanz García, and achieved worldwide recognition in the 1960s and 70s for founding Las Bordadoras de Isla Negra (The Embroiderers of Isla Negra), a sewing group that produced embroidered tapestry art. Despite her notability, she wasn't known to longevity researchers until after her death, since she kept a low profile in her later years.
https://twitter.com/fundacionneruda/status/1582065975733936133?fbclid=IwAR3dLCP7lECWenTWGUmo23WbzIvBO0f0bfXKz0fph4J1nUGdAwmvBkRX4rM

Aged 100:

Blog post by her son 

1995 interview

Unfortunately, her case isn't documented yet due to Chilean records from the 20th century being almost completely inaccessible to the public.

Profile picture: Marita Camacho Quirós (1911-Present)


   
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Ale76
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The Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Teresa Moraga Jara (born 29 January 1912, 110).
Ms. Moraga Jara currently lives in Santiago, Santiago Province, Chile.
Her case is currently pending on LAS.
At 110:

About the Doyen of of Chile there are no SCs or almost SCs men pending or validated by LAS.

 

http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
Persone viventi più longeve in Italia – Supercentenari d'Italia (supercentenariditalia.it)


   
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diego
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Posted by: @ale76

The Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Teresa Moraga Jara (born 29 January 1912, 110).
Ms. Moraga Jara currently lives in Santiago, Santiago Province, Chile.
Her case is currently pending on LAS.
At 110:

About the Doyen of of Chile there are no SCs or almost SCs men pending or validated by LAS.

 

 

And as for Berta Grez Martinez born on 1/3/1911,currently lives in Curico, Maule.No case of the older home has Lorenzo Cayunao Millan,born on 5/15/1910 lives and was born in Coihue Painemal, Cholchol, Cautin Province


   
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Mr. Lorenzo Cayunao Millan isn't verified, and I found info saying that he had a brother who died at age 101 in May 2011, implying that he was born between May 1909, and May 1910. I also found info saying that Mr. Millan had a sister who was 102 in December 2012, implying that she was born between December 1909 and December 1910. If this info about Mr. Millan's siblings are true, this debunks his claimed birthdate of May 15, 1910, as it's too close to the claimed birthdates of his siblings. I can only come up with 3 possibilities. 

1) The three of them are triplets, and were all born on May 15, 1910, in which case they would probably have one of the highest combined ages of triplets in the world.

2) The ages of Mr. Millan's siblings are wrong, but Mr. Millan's birthdate is correct, meaning he is the Doyen of Chile, and among the Top 10 oldest men on the planet.

3) The ages of Mr. Millan's siblings are correct, and his sister was likely the one born on May 15, 1910. This would make his brother, who we know is older than his sister, probably born sometime in early 1909. So Mr. Millan would've been born either in early 1908 or before, or in late 1911 or after. His brother could not have been the one with the May 15, 1910 birthdate, as the latest his youngest sister could've been born would be December 1910, and these birthdates would be too close. So even if his sister had the latest possible birthdate claimed (December 1910), his brother would still have had to have been born in early 1910 at the soonest, debunking Mr. Millan's claimed birthdate of May 15, 1910. 

I'll throw in a 4th explanation that's mostly wishful thinking.

4) Like possibility 3, the ages or Mr. Millan's siblings are correct, but the last two digits of Mr Millan's year of birth was mistakenly written as 1910, when he was actually born on May 15, 1900 making him almost 123 years old. I know it's wishful thinking, but it's cool to imagine incredible scenarios like these! 

In my lifetime, I would love to see someone, regardless if they are a man or a woman, break Jeanne Calment's record of 122 years and 164 days. Nothing against Mrs. Calment of course, but it would be a huge achievement for the whole human race to have someone again break the record of longevity. The probability right now of a living person being older than Mrs. Calment is near 0%, but it's not impossible!

That's why I like to wish and dream of someone living longer, and hopefully one day, I get to see those wishes and dreams become a reality. 

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Posted by: @aquanaut

O Sr. Lorenzo Cayunao Millan não é verificado, e encontrei informações dizendo que ele tinha um irmão que morreu aos 101 anos em maio de 2011, o que implica que ele nasceu entre maio de 1909 e maio de 1910. Também encontrei informações dizendo que o Sr. Millan tinha uma irmã que tinha 102 anos em dezembro de 2012, o que implica que ela nasceu entre dezembro de 1909 e dezembro de 1910. Se essa informação sobre os irmãos do Sr. Millan for verdadeira, isso desmascara sua alegada data de nascimento de 15 de maio de 1910, pois é muito próxima das datas de nascimento alegadas de seus irmãos. Eu só posso chegar a 3 possibilidades.

1) Os três são trigêmeos, e todos nasceram em 15 de maio de 1910, caso em que provavelmente teriam uma das maiores idades combinadas de trigêmeos do mundo.

2) As idades dos irmãos do Sr. Millan estão erradas, mas a data de nascimento do Sr. Millan está correta, o que significa que ele é o Doyen do Chile, e entre os 10 homens mais velhos do planeta.

3) As idades dos irmãos do Sr. Millan estão corretas, e sua irmã provavelmente foi a que nasceu em 15 de maio de 1910. Isso faria com que seu irmão, que sabemos ser mais velho que sua irmã, provavelmente nascesse em algum momento no início de 1909. Assim, Millan teria nascido no início de 1908 ou antes, ou no final de 1911 ou depois. Seu irmão não poderia ter sido o único com a data de nascimento de 15 de maio de 1910, já que a última vez que sua irmã mais nova poderia ter nascido seria dezembro de 1910, e essas datas de nascimento seriam muito próximas. Assim, mesmo que sua irmã tivesse a última data de nascimento possível reivindicada (dezembro de 1910), seu irmão ainda teria que ter nascido no início de 1910, no mínimo, desmascarando a alegada data de nascimento do Sr. Millan de 15 de maio de 1910.

Vou lançar uma 4ª explicação que é principalmente uma ilusão.

4) Como a possibilidade 3, as idades ou os irmãos do Sr. Millan estão corretos, mas os dois últimos dígitos do ano de nascimento do Sr. Millan foram erroneamente escritos como 1910, quando ele realmente nasceu em 15 de maio de 1900, tornando-o quase 123 anos de idade. Eu sei que é uma ilusão, mas é legal imaginar cenários incríveis como esses!

Na minha vida, eu adoraria ver alguém, independentemente de ser um homem ou uma mulher, quebrar o recorde de Jeanne Calment de 122 anos e 164 dias. Nada contra a Sra. Calment, é claro, mas seria uma grande conquista para toda a raça humana ter alguém novamente quebrando o recorde de longevidade. A probabilidade agora de uma pessoa viva ser mais velha do que a Sra. Calment é de quase 0%, mas não é impossível!

É por isso que eu gosto de desejar e sonhar com alguém vivendo mais, e espero que um dia, eu possa ver esses desejos e sonhos se tornarem realidade.

 

 

These wrong dates of birth are very bad, it is a pity that they did not give due importance in birth dates in various places of the world, it is difficult to know what is the correct date of birth even, and we have many cases like this

 

 


   
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Video I found on Facebook from October 2022, confirming that Mr. Millan is alive. I don't speak Spanish but he appeared to be doing well and he is still able to walk without assistance. 

I messaged the person who uploaded the video and told them that it is free if he would like to apply for the Doyen of Chile, but unfortunately they did not respond and switched the video over to private. 

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Posted by: @mendocino

Leonor Sobrino Sanz (8 Aug 1912 - 17 Oct 2022) was one of the oldest living people in Chile at the time of her death. She was born in Chiguayante, Chile to Spanish-born parents Eladio Sobrino Segovia and Luz Sanz García, and achieved worldwide recognition in the 1960s and 70s for founding Las Bordadoras de Isla Negra (The Embroiderers of Isla Negra), a sewing group that produced embroidered tapestry art. Despite her notability, she wasn't known to longevity researchers until after her death, since she kept a low profile in her later years.
https://twitter.com/fundacionneruda/status/1582065975733936133?fbclid=IwAR3dLCP7lECWenTWGUmo23WbzIvBO0f0bfXKz0fph4J1nUGdAwmvBkRX4rM

Aged 100:

-- attachment is not available --

Blog post by her son 

1995 interview

Unfortunately, her case isn't documented yet due to Chilean records from the 20th century being almost completely inaccessible to the public.

Another SC notable for something other than their longevity! 🙂

 


   
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Aquanaut
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Mr. Lorenzo Cayunao Millan confirmed alive today via Facebook. And apparently his date of birth listed as May 15, 1910 is wrong. His relative confirmed to me that his actual "claimed" date of birth is June 17, 1910. 

Edit: This new birthdate shifts him to the position below Mr. Otilio Dominguez Santos. I believe the new list of oldest living men in the world, including unvalidated cases would be as follows:

1. Juan Vicente Pérez Mora, 113 (Validated)

May 27, 1909

 

2. Eusebio Quintero Lopez, 113 (Validated)

March 06/15, 1910

 

3. Efrain Antonio Rios Garcia, 113 (Pending)

April 04/10, 1910

 

4. Otilio Dominguez Santos, 112 (Documented, but Unvalidated)

June 15, 1910

 

5. Lorenzo Cayunao Millan, 112 (Unvalidated)

June 17, 1910

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Posted by: @ale76

The Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Teresa Moraga Jara (born 29 January 1912, 110).
Ms. Moraga Jara currently lives in Santiago, Santiago Province, Chile.
Her case is currently pending on LAS.
At 110:

 

Ms. Teresa Moraga Jara sadly passed away on 5 May 2023, aged 111 years, 96 days.

 

The new Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Dorothea Duisberg [born 7 October 1912 in Bremen, Free Hanseatic City of Bremen (GER), 110].
Ms. Duisberg currently lives in Santiago, Santiago Province, Chile.

 

http://www.supercentenariditalia.it/persone-viventi-piu-longeve-in-italia.
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Posted by: @aquanaut

 

4. Otilio Dominguez Santos, 112 (Documented, but Unvalidated)

June 15, 1910

How many times should I repeat you he is NOT documented!!

 


   
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@coyote77 But do you think that he is a true case?


   
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@coyote77 he (Otilio) is documented. According to the gerontology fandom site and a conversation I had with his great grandchild via Facebook, he is documented. There is even a photo of him holding his documentation papers. He just isn't validated. Now there's no need to get snappy with me like that, but he does have documentation papers. His documentation just hasn't been "verified". It's two different things.

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@metajore personally I'm nearly 100% sure he's a true case. Discuss it more on Mr. Otilio's topic page?

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Posted by: @aquanaut

@coyote77 he (Otilio) is documented. According to the gerontology fandom site and a conversation I had with his great grandchild via Facebook, he is documented. There is even a photo of him holding his documentation papers. He just isn't validated. Now there's no need to get snappy with me like that, but he does have documentation papers. His documentation just hasn't been "verified". It's two different things.

The Gerontology Wiki can be edited by anyone, and often lists doubtful/debunked cases as "true", since many of the top contributors aren't actual researchers. I'm not expecting you to know absolutely everything about Latin American supercentenarian research, but your claim that Otilio's claim is "documented" is just complete misinformation. You're suggesting that a late-life birth certificate counts as substantial proof for his age, when it's actually more likely that his parents never officially registered his birth, since only an older brother born in 1904 appears in the civil registry (from my experience, this seems to be a somewhat common occurrence for Mexican parents to only register the birth of their first-born child). Coyote77 (Santiago) is, on the other hand, an actual LAS researcher, and he's aware of the research that's been done on this case, which we've been trying to solve for a few years at this point. 

You don't seem to understand what "documented" actually refers to in the realm of SC research. When a supercentenarian claimant's age is documented, that means we found some sort of early-life documentation supporting their age, such as a birth record, baptismal record, or possibly even a marriage record if they married early enough (although this is more of a GRG-era practice that LAS/LQ doesn't follow). The main task of researchers is to find a sufficiently strong paper trail connecting this early life documentation to the supercentenarian claim, which typically involves finding other documents from throughout their life to strengthen their case. Sometimes, a person will possess a "copy" certificate of their original birth record, but this doesn't appear to be the case with Otilio. I would be very happy if it turns out I'm wrong about this, but it doesn't seem like this certificate is based on an original birth record.

As I've said before, I also hope that his age can be verified someday, since I think there's a decent chance he's the age claimed (or at least a SC), but we don't have any actual documentation for him yet. 

 

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Posted by: @ale76

Ms. Teresa Moraga Jara sadly passed away on 5 May 2023, aged 111 years, 96 days.

 

The new Doyenne of Chile should be Ms. Dorothea Duisberg [born 7 October 1912 in Bremen, Free Hanseatic City of Bremen (GER), 110].
Ms. Duisberg currently lives in Santiago, Santiago Province, Chile.

 

RIP, Mrs Moraga Jara.

 

Does anyone know if there is any truth in the case of Berta Grez Martínez?

 

Overduidelijk misschien.


   
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Posted by: @marco

Does anyone know if there is any truth in the case of Berta Grez Martínez?

Personally, I'm very optimistic that she is age claimed, but so far we had no luck with research. Not that long ago, Chile became even more complicated for research.

According to the latest posts about her, one of her daughters is 90 years old.

 

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Posted by: @seto2001

Posted by: @marco

Does anyone know if there is any truth in the case of Berta Grez Martínez?

Personally, I'm very optimistic that she is age claimed, but so far we had no luck with research. Not that long ago, Chile became even more complicated for research.

 

 

Why is it more complicated?

 


   
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Posted by: @stoa-oid

Posted by: @seto2001

Personally, I'm very optimistic that she is age claimed, but so far we had no luck with research. Not that long ago, Chile became even more complicated for research.

Why is it more complicated?

It was easier to locate documents before. Also at the moment Chile doesn't have a lot of online records for the early 20th century, so we need to find other ways to document claimants.

 

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Thanks, seto2001. I see.


   
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adancho
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I have a great-aunt who is presumed to be 111 years old (August 5, 1912), (my grandmother's 94-year-old sister).

 

But it has been difficult for me to find documents in my country about her from the beginning of the 20th century and I believe that she has no family and is far removed from the subject of supercentenarians.

 

She was the eldest of almost 18 siblings, including twins.

 

I could not guarantee that she is 111 years old, but the truth is that she is over 100 years old.

Kane Tanaka (1903-2022) my favorite supercentenarian of all time.


   
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People who make false statements just to gain attention should be banned IMO.


   
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adancho
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Why would I make something like that up?

 

If they don't believe it, that's their problem, and besides, I didn't say that was her exact age, I gave her the benefit of the doubt that she might be younger.

 

If you don't know anything better, don't talk, you're not the one to say that it's a false claim.

Kane Tanaka (1903-2022) my favorite supercentenarian of all time.


   
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adancho
(@adancho)
Supercentenarian Fan
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 122
 

On the other hand, an apology for making those statements without having concrete proof of her age (I do believe that she is over 100 years old)

 

So there was my mistake for not having proof and making that statement, an apology, if you consider it necessary delete my statements, I should not have said that.

Kane Tanaka (1903-2022) my favorite supercentenarian of all time.


   
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